Cheap Performance Increase

[Ridgeline4wd_Archive]

Edmunds.com review of 99 Ody:
"In any case, the Odyssey's VTEC V6 produced 210 horsepower at 5,200 rpm and 229 foot-pounds of torque at 4,300 rpm when filled with premium fuel (regular unleaded would have been acceptable, too, but output would have declined to 205 horsepower and 219 ft-lbs) and qualified as a low-emissions vehicle (LEV)."

For most of the six years we owned and I drove a 99 Ody, I used 93 octane. The specs above show 5hp and 10lbf torque increase with use of premium and in that 4spd Ody it felt like you were missing a gear without it. Numbers were published in owner's manual. First gear would wind out to near redline which you would have to do if you were trying to accelerate up a steep incline. It helped that I was trained to pay for high octane by Ody predecessor - Mazda 626GT. Turbo 2.2 liter which spec'ed at 140hp but tested like 180 hp.....with 93 octane. The turbo quickly became limp without high octane and in its later years I had a habit of adding "103 Octane boost" (at $7-$8 per tank) in order to "feel the power". I have a short commute and this was cheaper than a new car. What I noticed most from 93 octane in the Ody was the torque increase...would pull stronger from lower rpms; didn't need to wind out the engine as much.

Based on the Ody numbers - premium gives 2.44% increase in hp and 4.57% increase in torque, so its the torque that increases significantly. Applying the same percentage increases to the Ridge (this is purely speculative, except that the manual does advise using premium when towing over 3500lbs and using the 255hp/252lbf no.s) yields: 261hp & 263.5lbf torque. Applied to the new SAE numbers 247hp & 245lbf torque yields: 253hp & 256lbf torque. Wonder what a tank of 103 Octane boost would be like?

As for mpg, I was getting 18-20 mpg in the Ody when traded, but got as high as 28mpg in sustained hiway (when new). Lower mpg due to driving it like wife's Pilot (5spd & 240 hp). Wife's Pilot get's 17mpg as she drives it briskly. Bottom line is you can get a broad range of permformance and mpg depending on how you drive. My first three tanks are 18.5, 17.8 & 17.5 with increasingly "assertive" driving. I expect to get better than Pilot mpg as I don't hardly have to depress pedal to feel same as Pilot acceleration...its the need for sound (that glorious motor at 3-4k rpm). I'm usually loafing along at/under 2k).

BTW, we had a 95 Grand Caravan AWD that averaged 17mpg with much less performance; the 626GT averaged 24mpg,and my co-workers Mazda RX8 gets 15 city and low 20s hiway.
YMMV

[Ridgeline4wd_Archive]

Regarding this performance increase.

1) Most time users are in the 2-4K RPM range.
The performance curve for the Ridge 3.5 engine shows, the net HP in this range will be ~90-200. This would equate to a 2.2-4.8 HP increase. After acceleration you would likely be experiencing a 2.2hp gain.

2)the torque curve is pretty flat. (2-4K RPM ~230-235ftlbs)
In the 2-4K RPM range this equates to 10.5-10.7ftlbs. gain

Most drivers would not be able to detect gains like this, I doubt in real world driving you or I could. The only ones to gain here are the oil companies @ at .20 additional for premium gas I would rather save my $$ to put towards a payment. Based on my figures, this would cost me almost $300.00/yr at current gas prices of 2.69/2.89.

If you are towing this could provide some benefit due to the greater load demands that are being placed on the engine.(torque gains)

[Ridgeline4wd_Archive]

DopplerDon,
You discount my emperical evidence. I didn't pay for premium to waste my money. I perceived benefits in my 99 Ody and this "upgrade" enabled me to avoid upgrading to the 2002 Ody with 240 hp.

Your item 2) supports my performance increase assertions. The 10lbf torque was obvious in my Ody. That is Honda's claimed increase. Honda is known for underestimating performance numbers and the actual increase may 20lbf torque and this may be the case at lower rpms which is what I felt.

Your reference to Ridge power curves and where increase would occur is pure speculation. Unless vehicle is dynoed, you can't know where/how much hp and torque would result. The data points I use in transposing 99 Ody hp & torque are the 5500 rpm max hp and 4350 rpm max torque (only data points I have for both octanes). Who's to say Ody or Ridge gets 10% increase at 2K rpm?

Honda's own tech descriptions state: "The net effect of the Ridgeline's dual-stage intake manifold and VTEC valve train is that Ridgeline delivers more than many of the large V-6s and small V-8s used by the competition, while also providing superior fuel efficiency and very low emissions. More than 90-percent of peak torque is available from 2500 to 5500 rpm."
ref:
http://www.hondanews.com/catID2138?mid=2005020137372&mime=asc
hondanews.com > 2006 Honda Ridgeline Powertrain Part 2
90% of peak torque at 2500 rpm would be 226.8lbf torque!

Topic is titled "Cheap performance" not free. 8)

[Ridgeline4wd_Archive]

All this for <2.5% increase in horsepower?
To quote the late Benny Hill:

"BIG deal".

[Ridgeline4wd_Archive]

Mooncat, please accept my apologies if you took my statement as a hostile rebuttal to your claim.

The point I am trying to get across is, so many people are influenced by what they read without discernment as to factual evidence. Many will chime in stating they can/cannot tell, I expect this. This is to be a forum for intelligent persons to voice their points. I am a factual person, we need all types here so all may benefit in one way or another. I hope my postings benefit some members, I also must accept that some may not.

My point here was… What are the real gains here and at what cost? What is to be achieved by this? It appears to you they were perceivable, most could not discern the difference.
Is it worth it? Maybe, but to most, I doubt it.
As I stated while towing since the real gains are made in the torque. The torque is what you need for the HP to do it's work. I stated 230-235ft lbs T in the 2-5K range that would equate to 91-93% of peak torque. That is in line with your referenced Honda claim of 90%. I do have a copy of the Honda released dyno readings for the engine. For persons interested there is a rough copy that is featured on Honda’s Ridgeline web site under ‘get the complete brochure’ http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_frameset.asp?ModelName=Ridgeline&Function=brochure&Campaign=&RURL=%2Fmodels%2Fmodel_overview.asp%3FModelName%3DRidgeline%26bhcp%3D1%26BrowserDetected%3DTrue

If you note there is a very small copy of the dyno readings, my claims will be right in line with this Honda published document.

Don’t forget Honda engines have come a long way in the last 6-7 model years. Honda has taken a 3.5L (same basic design) engine from (your) ’99 Odyssey and in ’06 has increased the hp about 20% and the torque by 10%!!! There were also improvements made to make the engine more robust for a heavier duty use in a truck, and don’t forget…. they added VTEC and also achieved a ULEV emissions rating! Way to go Honda… What will the future hold?

[Ridgeline4wd_Archive]

Dopplerdon,
You're missing the point. This is not a contest like who's got the best car wax. The topic is Ridgeline Aftermarket Mods/Engine Peformance and the subject of this thread is "Cheap Performance Increase". If it's not for you, move on. Folks can decide for themselves and don't need you to decide for them. You were thinking maybe "Jackson Racing Superchargers - 30% increase in power and torque for $17.95"?

They didn't add VTEC since the 99 Ody...it was the first of the large Honda's with the 3.5L VTEC engine (previously seen only on the Acura RL) and is not far removed from the Pilot or Ridge 3.5L. I know, we own both and I followed the product development preceding them.

Tell me you're a patronizing 20-something and I'll calm down.

rmeyer001,
And don't forget about the 4.57% increase in torque!
Tuners replace exhausts for that much performance gain and at much higher cost.

What'd you guys do ... trade in mommy vans for the Ridge ?!
(Oops, I did)

[jake mcfad]

Hey,

I'm Jake. I'm considering buying a Ridge. Although, the reputation of the Ridge being underpowered is a worry to me.
I've read this post, and It sounds pretty creditable. Let me ask you.
Have you tryed putting the HIGHER octane fuel in your RIDGE yet? And, if so is the increase you speculate about felt?
Another question off the subject, yet in the name of POWER. Is the Ridge's 3.5 litre, the same engine as in the Acura MDX? If so please check out my post in the Engine perf. Mods. section.

I really want to buy a ridge and will if I can increase the power to a acceptable level. Although, I haven't even driven 1 yet. So, it may not be as bad I think it is.

[Waterbug]

jake mcfad wrote (View Post): › docWrite("quote")
I haven't even driven 1 yet. So, it may not be as bad I think it is.

It isn't. At 245 hp it has 10 more ponies than my 5.7 liter Chevy V-8. The Ridge's V-6 doesn't have the torque of a V-8 but that is to be expected. The difference is only noticable when you are hauling HEAVY loads. Compared to a Chevy Colorado's inline 5, it's a power house.

[jake mcfad]

Thanks for the reply.
I think you may be mistakin, and I hope you are. I've enterchanged pulleys from mustang to f150 in the past, and I believe the pulleys are a worthwhile performance mod. Unlike so many useless mods.

"Save for the engine, transmission, and all-wheel drive system that is carryover from the renowned Acura MDX sport-utility, the rest of the Ridgeline is all-new. "http://www.gulfcoastnews.com/RT2006HondaRidgeline.htm

Honda Ridgeline: A Next-Generation Four-Door 4WD Truck ... While the powertrain is similar to the Acura MDX; the engine, transmission and Variable Torque ... hondanews.com

[jake mcfad]

Hey,

I spoke with someone at

Address: Unorthodox Racing, Inc
11 Brandywine Dr.
Deer Park, NY 11729
Phone #: (631) 586-9525
Fax #: (631) 586-2599

He said they would work with someone wanting to investigate the enterchange ability of there 05 MDX 3.5 litre pulleys and our Ridge 3.5 liter pulleys.

[jake mcfad]

jake mcfad wrote (View Post): › docWrite("quote")
Hey,

I spoke with someone at

Address: Unorthodox Racing, Inc
11 Brandywine Dr.
Deer Park, NY 11729
Phone #: (631) 586-9525
Fax #: (631) 586-2599

He said they would work with someone wanting to investigate the enterchange ability of their 05 MDX 3.5 litre pulleys and our Ridge 3.5 liter pulleys.

[Waterbug]

jake mcfad wrote (View Post): › docWrite("quote")
I've enterchanged pulleys from mustang to f150 in the past, and I believe the pulleys are a worthwhile performance mod.

Unless you are changing the pulley ratio on a supercharger, changing pulley ratios isn't going to do anything. Installing an electric fan on that F-150 would make more sense. Running your water pump and alternator at speeds other than what the engineers designed is usually counter productive.

If your only interested in beating someone in a 1/4 mile race, just cut the belts.

[jake mcfad]

Have you ever tryed Underdrive Pulleys?

[Waterbug]

Pulleys drive your fan, altenator, water pump, power steering and air conditioning. If you have an electric fan, eliminate that one. If it's cool outside, eliminate the air conditioner. If your battery is fully charged, there is no drag on the altenator. If your driving in a straight line, there is no drag on the power steering pump. So we are down to the water pump that has a pully that circulates the coolant at sufficient speed to cool the engine. That ratio was devised by an engineer who knows more about it than you and I. It probably takes 5hp to drive all of those functions. So, underdriving them gives you an added 2 1/2 horses but only when those things are drawing power and if they are drawing power, it means that you NEED them. Everything except the water pump idles when not needed. (Most fans even kick out at higher rpms)

EDIT: That F-150 has a different pulley ratio for a reason. It is designed to keep cool pulling a 5,000 lb+ load up a hill on a hot summer day. The Mustang isn't designed to pull anything. If all you want is speed, buy the Mustang.

[jake mcfad]

I agree there could be negative factors from changing pulleys from the perceived well engineered pulleys the OEM put on a engine.
I hear your argument, and it sounds valid enough.
And, I am worried about negative consequences of doing such mod.
However, I do think there are small and noticeable power gains from this mod. Aswell, I haven't noticed any ILL effects of my UD pulleys on my FA150 yet. Thank goodness.

So, if you don't care to or your modest, cautious, conservative or afraid. You may want to play it safe, and take what the manufacturer gives you, and not change a thing.

[basils]

I didn't do a search but I thought I'd just ask anyway. Has anyone heard of any aftermarket chips that would improve performance? Will they even have them I wonder?

[jake mcfad]

basils,

I don't believe there is one yet.
Although, I read about "Westin" having a lifted, custom painted Ridgeline
at SEMA, and the article said there was "JET" programmed.
I checked "JET", and nothing available.

Except the "JET" company they'll take your stock ECU, and burn a custom tune to it.

So, possible. What do u think about what was mentioned above "more power with higher octane" ? And- Under drive pulleys?

[luvmyhondas]

JET's website has the listing for the Ridgeline. I would bet it's just a tune 'optimized' for premium fuel.

I run premium in my Ridge and while it may just be in my head, it does seem to be smoother. It seems that I'm matting it more when it's filled with 87 regular. I can definitely say that there's a difference when towing. the truck just pulls off from a stop much easier. again, it may just be my wishful thinking, but it seems to smooth out the power delivery when running on 93 octane.